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"Dangerous" dog put to death

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0

07.11.2012 6:20pm

Thread Creator

judge_raz
Ceci n'est pas une lobster

I'm sorry. I realize that this may not be important to everyone, but it's really got me in a twist. If the admins or mods want to lock the thread, I won't put up a fuss, but I can't go without saying something about this.

https://latimesblogs.latimes.com/world_now/2012/07/lennox-the-dog-is-put-to-death-in-northern-ireland.html

For those of you who don't want to read the whole story, I'll summarize. Breed specific legislation has appeared in numerous countries worldwide ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breed-specific_legislation ) and does everything from making it illegal to breed to making it illegal to have dogs of a certain breed under your care. This is due to a widely erroneous assumption that certain breeds are more prone to viciousness than others, which is absolutely wrong any way you look at it.

The reason why I bring up Lennox in specific is because of the circumstances surrounding what happened to him. Lennox was prone to being a little territorial, and having a bit of a problem being around strangers, both symptoms of a serious case of being a dog. Very few dogs are immediately warm to strangers and even less have no issue with strangers being in their territory. Despite the fact that Lennox had never actually hurt anyone, he was seized a couple of years ago, and after a rather long and sustained fight from his family and vocal opposition from people in the UK, Europe and America, he was put down today for what amounts to absolutely nothing.

This sort of legislation makes me absolutely sick. It treats sentient animals as property, and makes blanket statements about an entire breed of dog that has no basis in reality. Any dog of any breed can be vicious, harmful and mean if you neglect and abuse it. If you treat a golden retriever badly enough, it will be just as vicious as any other dog that's treated badly. This sort of nonsense occurs in any number of different countries, and is now spreading across America as well.

If you oppose this sort of big government intrusion, let your local representative know. Don't let shit like this go unheard, and speak up for the innocent dogs who can't.

"Of Christ's twelve Apostles Judas alone proved to be traitor. But if he had acquired power, he would have represented the other eleven Apostles as traitors, and also all the lesser Apostles whom Luke numbers as seventy." - Leon Trotsky

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07.11.2012 6:53pm

CaButler
Winter Knight of the Unseelie Court

While my dog loves strangers (really, she wants to meet anybody she sees on her walks), if anybody tried to take her away for "public safety" reasons, I'll tell them to go to hell and fight tooth and nail to keep her.

I feel bad abou this and I wonder if maybe Lennox size was part of it, but he didn't seem particularly big. It's true that dogs are weary of strangers, but that comes with the territory of being extremely protective of their owners.

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07.11.2012 6:59pm

Vyers
Dark Adonis

Surprised to see you reposting a local enough story to me Raz, I saw this on my Facebook friends' pages of all things.

I always thought the problem with pit-bulls isn't necessarily that they're more prone to violence, but that they're less prone to show signs of deterioration of mood or the imminent likelyhood of an attack. So it isn't that attack is more likely, it's just that you won't ever know it's coming.

Also due to their breeding/build, if one does attack someone, there's fuck all the average person is going to be able to do about it. I've heard you can hit them square on the head with a tire-iron during an attack and they won't give a shit.

Zubis might be able to back me up, but I can remember growing up, there was a particular period of time where every few weeks in the Irish newspapers there was the face of a post-pitbull-mauled person.

I'll admit I don't really know anything about dogs, or dog breeding, but I think the outpouring of support is slightly tainted in my opinion. as all the articles I've seen about this locally have been massively biased and misleading. Most don't mention that the animal has been assessed as dangerous seperate from the breed. Some don't even mention it's a pit-bull, and try to spin a story that the council kidnapped a kid's dog because they haven't filled their bastard quota.

The fact at the end of the day is the breed is against the law in Northern Ireland. It might suck, but there it is. No amount of viral social media campaigns will change that.

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07.11.2012 6:59pm

reido
(\/)(o,,,o)(\/)

I hate the way society views pit bull types in general. My mum-in-law's pit is probably the sweetest dog I've ever known, even back when I was still a "stranger".

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07.11.2012 7:35pm

Zubis
Registered Member

Vyers is right about the stories growing up...but sadly there's a reason for at least some of that. It's been proven that in the UK there's a very high ownership of pit bulls among criminals, who often train the dogs to attack people.

I love dogs - my FB photo feed is evidence of that - but I wouldn't put a kid next to a pit bull given the studies that show pit-bull attacks on children are significantly higher than many other breeds.

It was a mistake to put the dog down, but don't try and pretend that all dog breeds are equal personality wise.

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07.11.2012 7:54pm

Kal
yes

Vyers said:

Surprised to see you reposting a local enough story to me Raz, I saw this on my Facebook friends' pages of all things.

I always thought the problem with pit-bulls isn't necessarily that they're more prone to violence, but that they're less prone to show signs of deterioration of mood or the imminent likelyhood of an attack. So it isn't that attack is more likely, it's just that you won't ever know it's coming..

The problem with pit-bull type dogs (and amstaffs and rotts and whatnot) is that they were bred for fighting for a very long time and for a very long time the breeders selected only the most vicious dogs to make them procreate, resulting in pups with violence as an inherited trait.
Breeders (at least in France) have been making serious efforts these past years to "clean up" those breeds and only produce family-friendly dogs (truth is, pitbulls are really sweet dogs) but it's gonna take a little more time (if not forever) to get lineages that are clean of any fighting history.
I've seen pits that come from a 'clean' lineage and they are some really sweet dogs. I've also seen some shi-tzus or pomeranians that you couldn't approach without losing a finger. Hell, Sumo, our former president's bichon frise (of all breeds) was put down after he bit the first lady (-_-)

Any dog can be dangerous if not raised properly (and even then, sometimes dogs just behave like *shudders* dogs and get agressive for reasons that we can't really understand (but seem valid to them)). Try preventing an angry lab who's been raised to fight from biting your face off. Shiba inus were used to hunt bears in Japan, and I've seen my little shiba fight with other dogs.. I sure as hell wouldn't want him to "turn bad" on humans.
But that said, some breeds have been bred as "family dogs" for decades (centuries) and as a result are much less prone to be agressive.
I'd argue that there are some way more dangerous (read "potentially dangerous") dog breeds out there that are perfectly legal (like malinois shepherds or akita inus or frickin Sarloos wolfhounds) so this breed categorization just seems ridiculous to me.

Some countries should follow Switzerland's example concerning canine laws (for example, everyone who buys a dog is obligated to go to dog training school). They might be a bit drastic but they prevent a lot of "mishaps" like this one. (although I'm pretty sure pits and other Cat.1 dogs are forbidden there though)

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07.11.2012 9:54pm

Catastrophe
I'm Catbug!

Big dogs scare me. I'm okay with small dogs though.

I suppose in a way that breed-specific legislation is a knee-jerk reaction to a rash of dog-on-human attacks, but the fact of the matter is, people come first. Unless it can be proven that the owner is responsible for the dog's behaviour, then the dog is blamed for its own behaviour. Should the dog be put down? I suppose that depends on the severity of the incident. Can violent dogs be reformed? Apparently so, but it takes a lot of patience and a lot of work to do so. Plus animal shelters have trouble adopting out agressive dogs. Yes, it's true that more often than not, a dog is trained to be agressive or even violent, but animals is animals, and are "less intelligent" than people and (generally) have no sense of right or wrong. So one hand, if your dog is a marshmallow with your family but takes a chunk out of a stranger, your only options are to keep the dog cooped up in your house and chained in your backyard. Neither of which are nice options. Muzzle the dog? Sure, that's a viable option but some people (read: morons) refuse to do that, citing it as cruel. I don't know about you, but I think that essentially "grounding" your dog is worse.

Some breeds are naturally disposed to be more aggressive than others, but often it comes back to how they're treated and handled by their owners. They'll almost always be suspicious of strangers but will only react badly if their owner has raised them poorly or trained them to do so. So whose fault is it? Stupid owner or dog who doesn't know better? Let's look at it another way: if a dog is trained to be aggressive, it becomes a weapon. In this case, then yes, the owner is to blame and should be charged as such. However, the dog is still 'weaponized' and weapons used for force, deadly or otherwise, have no place in society. The weapon has to be removed so that no one else can get hurt.

Anyway, I've rambled enough. Suffice it to say, I couldn't really tell which side I'd take in this debate. Should dangerous dogs be put down? It's hard to say. One thing I will say, with all certainty, is that in these kind of situations, I place the blame squarely on the owner.

1

07.11.2012 9:54pm

Onyx
Butts
Administrator

There are no such things as bad dogs. There are only bad people who make them that way.

Dobermans, pit bulls, rottweilers, etc. can all be as sweet and cuddly as a teddy bear. True that some dogs are naturally more aggressive than others, but it's all in how they're trained and brought up.

The bans on pit bulls many cities have are among the highest level of bullshit I've ever seen. It unfairly punishes dogs and good, responsible owners for doing absolutely nothing wrong. Such laws are made and supported by ignorant, stupid people who have a kneejerk reaction and blind fear instead of putting something rational in place.

As someone who has worked with dogs and volunteered in an animal shelter, and as someone who owns a rescue dog, this is an issue I feel VERY strongly about. Not pulling punches here.

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07.11.2012 10:18pm

OrionHardy
Otherworld

I'm against these banning on breeds, not just because it's wrong (the entire it's the owner, not the dog), but also because it's incredibly short sighted, since the arses that have picked that breed to be fighting dogs simply move on to another breed so the problem of violent dogs pop up again.

Great men aren't everywhere, just where it counts.

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07.11.2012 10:26pm

Mavilu
Yep, still gaming

Yes, just like Kal says, some breeds were grown to be fighters, just like some breeds were grown to be shepherds, or companions or hunters or whatever.
Not fair to the doggies, they do what's in their nature to do and some of them keep that nature even if raised with the most love and care, just like humans, dogs do have their personalities.
Our Dino was half Pitbull and people saw that and respected it, we even went to a vet that refused to treat him! and yet, even though he was very territorial and no animal tresspassing our yard lived to tell the tale and he was very, very effectively lethal (he used to wait until the unfortunate trespasser would get close, thinking that he was asleep and then as quick as lighting, he would break tha back of whatever it was, no matter how many times we told him not to do that) he was the sweetest dog you'll ever see, but I have to admit that I have never seen a Rottweiler be nice to me, for example, and Dobermans scare me a bit and I have grown up with a family that tends to pick and adopt every dog and cat they find in the street, resulting in mighty pet populations at home; I know dogs, I still will respect and keep my distance with certain breeds, especially if I don't know who's been raising them.

You also have the problem that those certain breeds are of course picked by profesional trainers for home defense and very few people gets a fighting breed dog just because it looks cute, many people unfortunately has them purposely to raise them to be mean to strangers.

So, I can see how these legistations are passed, they are knee-jerk reactions, just as many, many legistations passed; let's hope that breeders do make an effort in 'cleaning up" breeds, unfortuantely, even if it is a global effort, it will still take a long time for the fear of fighting breeds to attenuate even a bit.

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07.12.2012 3:20am

Spidey
So Sigh Ety

Catastrophe said:

Big dogs scare me. I'm okay with small dogs though.

I"m the opposite. Small dogs are ugly to me, and big dogs are cute and huggable.

This type of legislation is pretty lame, especially because this dog didn't actually hurt anyone. I don't really feel strongly about it as much as others, but I am definitely against that type of law.

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07.12.2012 3:38am

Crono
Crono can cross dimensions too!

I'm in our boat Spidey: I love big dogs and cant' really stand small dogs (though there are exceptions).

I'm not a fan of this blanket law even if I don't really like the breed (bad experience with a friends). In my city pit bulls are the most common dog found at shelters because the poor criminal type let them breed and throw out the dogs. And yeah, while on average they don't act too kind that doesn't mean they are all shit.

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Just Finished: Fable II: 7 hours.

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07.12.2012 7:35am

Wipwned
YEEEEEAAAH!

In Ontario, we've had a ban against Pitbulls for years now (According to the wikipedia article above, since 2005) yet it's almost a regular thing to hear people crying out against the ban and how oppressive it is against a singular dog breed.

I'm inclined to agree, since the ban is against one breed alone the legislature stymies symptoms (pitbull = agressive breed, therefore ban prevents animal attacks, an erroneous and magnificent leap in logic) as opposed to solving the problem. As Onyx put it, there are no such things as bad dogs. There are only bad people who make them that way. There was an example a few months ago that proved to me the law on this is absurdly unjust.

Essentially, the Ontario ban puts strict regulation on any owner of a pitbull that has been in the province since before the ban began. While some of this is oppresive (each pitbull must be spayed or nutured unless a vet deems them unable to go under anaesthetic) a lot of these rules make sense (the dog must be muzzled in public, the owner takes full liability for the dogs actions).

So this guy has his dog taken from him after it escapes his home and makes it's way to a public park. There's threats that the dog will likely be put down and this guy feels the need to cry to every newspaper in town. The problem? He's owned the pitbull for several years without any adherance to the ban, he's refused to pay for the dog, refused to have the dog registered and has generally shrugged off his responsibilities, citing that his personal living conditions were so poor that the option to register the dog was never really made available to him.

The fact that this man is free to cry about the loss of his dog still irks me; why the hell isn't he behind bars for failing to properly take care of this dog? You mean to tell me that if that dog had become sick during any point in time after the ban went into place, he wouldn't have the money to save it? So, out of all this, the worst thing he gets is a slap on the wrist while his dog has to be put down because of his gross negligence. What bullshit.

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07.12.2012 8:49am

Murasame
HALE YEAH

Wait, pitbulls have only been used for fighting in recent years. Previously they were hunting and companion dogs, more or less. And breeds that were used for fighting in the past are now seen as friendlier breeds. That reasoning smacks of bullshit. It is almost all down to shitty owners. If there is a pre-existing chance for dog attacks then I'd say it's by a very negligible amount. Thousands of years of breeding isn't undone by 100 years of dog fighting.

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07.12.2012 11:49am

(Edited on 07.12.2012 at 1:08pm)

Fincher
Deep Water Horizon

Murasame said:

Wait, pitbulls have only been used for fighting in recent years. Previously they were hunting and companion dogs, more or less. And breeds that were used for fighting in the past are now seen as friendlier breeds. That reasoning smacks of bullshit. It is almost all down to shitty owners. If there is a pre-existing chance for dog attacks then I'd say it's by a very negligible amount. Thousands of years of breeding isn't undone by 100 years of dog fighting.

Actually, they were originally bred to fight chained bulls and bears. They weren't meant to be aggressive toward people, though.

Edit: To be more specific, bulldogs were bred for bull-baiting and bear-baiting. They were then crossed with terriers, which produced "bull and terriers" (pit bulls) for the purpose of dog-fighting.

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