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Game of Thrones: Season 5

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05.18.2015 6:41am

Thread Creator

Jaran
I'm going to try SCIENCE!

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05.18.2015 5:54pm

(Edited on 05.18.2015 at 6:50pm)

Testament
Shamshot

That was actually the 2nd best episode of the season, IMO, which isn't saying much. The Winterfell changes don't bother me that much (I was hoping that the last scene wouldn't come about, but seemed unavoidable once they changed Sansa's storyline), but the Dorne scenes were ass.

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05.18.2015 8:20pm

Kellios
Yikes and away!

As soon as the show made it clear that Sansa was going to Winterfell, I knew this was going to happen, and I hate the show for taking the obvious Hollywood Shock Value route. I'm so grossly annoyed that they actually decided to do it, because "hurr rape character development hurr." The whole thing is now set up for Theon and his redemption arc, rather than Sansa trying to find her place in this world by playing what she can of the game. They really should've just cast a fake Northern girl to be the fake Arya, and not actually use Sansa (I was actually hoping Ros would take this role, instead of getting killed off).

It just rubs me the wrong way. This is already the second attempt of rape against Sansa (first being the mob scene when Myrcella is sent off back in season 2), and the gut reaction I get is that D&D were frothing at the mouth for Sophie Turner to turn 18. While no, it's not as bad as what happened in the books, no I don't expect a happy ending, and no, I don't think getting raped is going to make Sansa's arc "useless" (not saying anyone here said that, but I've seen that comment floating around, wtf), it all just feels like a huge "fuck you" to book readers and the respected story. They wrote themselves into the obvious corner with no real attempt to spin it. And it's just frustrating.

Dorne is just comical. I started laughing wihen Jaime and Bronn just waltzed into the Water Gardens while in Dornish garb - no problem at all. How cartoony can you get?

The show is clearly starting to suffer without the foundation of GRRM's writing for future book events. It's now "shock" for viewers and ratings instead of for the story. And I'm just real sad it's going to be like this, because it didn't have to be this way.

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05.19.2015 5:49am

dem
Sing for me, little bird

David and Dan frothing at the mouth? Come on. For one thing, Sophie Turner is 19 and was already 18 when the scene was shot(same with the earlier bathing scene when she told Myranda to fuck off). Secondly, she doesn't have to do shit if she doesn't want to. All she had to do was expose her back to the camera and act like she was in pain, which was likely done with ADR days/weeks after the scene was shot.

There's nothing tasteful about rape, but it can be tastefully shot when the material is in the right hands. The fact that the camera moves to Theon's facial reaction as soon as Ramsay rips Sansa dress and people are still this affected just makes it look like the director did his job well. I'm just glad they didn't take a non-rape from the books and change it into one due to a lousy interpretation of the scene and lousy directing.

From a creative standing, it also makes more dramatic sense to have it happen to major character rather than a nobody. Were they supposed to cast a Jeyne Poole and keep her around for years just so she could be raped in Sansa's place?

I'm definitely NOT grouping Kellios into this next part, but the general response I've seen online is that people are less angry about the rape itself and more angered that it happened to a character that it hasn't happened to in the books. That's such a fucked up line of thinking that I wouldn't even know where to begin...

Kellios said:

The show is clearly starting to suffer without the foundation of GRRM's writing for future book events. It's now "shock" for viewers and ratings instead of for the story. And I'm just real sad it's going to be like this, because it didn't have to be this way.

I completely agree with you on this point, though. My interest is waning even if I don't see myself quitting the show entirely. It's just a shame because the series is what got me to finally read those books in the first place. The Winterfell storyline from ADwD is one of my favourite storylines in the books. The show has completely derailed it and not just because of that rape scene. All the political intrigue and the huge amount of things happening behind the scenes in the North are what make it such a page turner. Call me a naive optimist, but I'm hoping it can only go up from here. Both for Sansa and the entire season.

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05.19.2015 10:45am

Kellios
Yikes and away!

It's not just because she was raped. Given the circunstances, the world, and the fiction, what happened on screen is exactly what would happen. My issue is that D&D consciously decided to do it, and it's just piss poor screenwriting. They've diverged so much already from the books with everyone else - they really had to keep the Jeyne Poole stuff? And then use a main character who (I know, I know) in the books isn't even remotely close to Winterfell?

And yes, I was being hyperbolic with the frothing comment, but this is the third time watching a main female character get raped in the show when it didn't happen like that in the books - as a female viewer, I'm very exhausted of it. Yes, the books have its rapes too, but it's far more nuanced and contexual, rather than for shock and stirring social media.

I just wish they didn't do the real obvious outcome of having Sansa go back North. It's very lazy, and a disservice to the character, the story, and the world.

They should've used Fat Walda. She's established enough where we know who she is, but she isn't a main character. Don't even marry off Ramsay - announce baby, Ramsay obviously not happy, get Theon/Walda bonding going on, have Theon and Ramsay flay/trip/push/TalisaStab Fat Walda to motivate Theon's arc, create tension between Roose/Ramsay, feel enough for Walda but not enough (she's a Frey, after all), on-going Stannis arrival, Winter is Coming, North Remembers, continued book plot, Sansa hopefully pushing Robin out the Moon Door, etc.

But nah. Let's have Ramsay rape Sansa instead.

I know D&D don't want to waste Sansa in the Vale for an entire season (nor would it make good TV), but surely there could have been something much better than what we got.

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05.19.2015 1:15pm

Thread Creator (Edited on 05.19.2015 at 2:37pm)

Jaran
I'm going to try SCIENCE!

I think the problem is more that, from a narrative perspective the scene accomplished almost nothing. We already know that Sansa is in a shitty/dangerous situation, Theon is broken, and Ramsay is a vicious motherfucker. The dinner scene established all this already without the need for sexual assault, so what exactly was the rape scene meant to do beyond add shock value?

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05.20.2015 2:30am

Nelfichu
I've been there, hombre.

The Dorne stuff is admittedly bad, but wow, you'd think they played an episode of Hercules: The Legendary Journey last Sunday night by the way people are calling it stupid and claiming GoT has jumped the shark. The Sansa stuff was dark, well -acted, and great; the Arya stuff was cool, Jorah and Tyrion are awesome together, Littlefinger had that awesome standoff with Lancel, and yet people are calling this episode garbage?

Are we all watching the same show?

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05.20.2015 6:09am

Coolsetzer
Formerly Furysetzer

People are taking the "rape" thing way too overboard. In the context of the story, Sansa knowingly married Ramsay and gave herself to him. Do people really think that nothing like that has ever happened in the real world? I'm more shocked at people's reaction to it. At least it wasn't gratuitous.

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05.20.2015 2:32pm

Lexx
I know how they work

I'm more upset that Dorne's and The North's storylines have been so frakked up. Which is ironic since I was saying a while ago that I don't like the Dorne storyline, but holy shit, the show has made me appreciate it in a way I never did. Not to mention the disaster that is the Sand Snakes.

As for the rape, I find it a bit odd that people were fine watching a person be tortured/flayed/gelded for an entire season, a pregnant woman stabbed repeatedly in the stomach, numerous children being murdered, multiple people burned alive and screaming in agony, etc. But a rape scene has caused there to be calls to boycott the show and people swearing it off and condemning it for eternity. I wish they hadn't gone there with Sansa, but that's hardly the worst thing they've done on this show.

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05.20.2015 4:38pm

Testament
Shamshot

In the Old Tongue, Stark translates as "bad luck".

I don't care for most of the changes that have been made, but Dorne is, by far, the worst.

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05.20.2015 4:45pm

Id82
Fuck Shit Stack.

I think it's because it's a character that feminists saw as a possible strong female archetype. She was indepedent and seemed to be going her own way, and then she was basically degraded. Although she was basically useless for most of the series. Being the typical "princess" who wanted to marry a Prince, she's basically been pulled this way and that with no real clear goal in mind.

I think a lot of people are looking at this scene like it glorifies rape in some way. It doesn't show anything but Theon's face as he looks on in discomfort, and the sounds going on in the background. I felt really uncomfortable watching this scene, and it was supposed to be uncomfortable. You could cut the tension with a knife. Game of thrones is excellent at building scenes up to a huge level of discomfort. They make you think things are ok, and then hit you with something awful. Rape is a terrible thing and I think the show was trying to show that.
I think certain people just want to white wash it and act like rape doesn't happen. Or didn't happen to countless women in the past. Or they want to protect themselves from the thoughts of rape.

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05.21.2015 2:40pm

Call
Firefightin' Administrator
Administrator

The rape was absolutely necessary to what (I think) the storyline will become. I believe Stannis will retake the North, and I believe Theon will help him do so by killing Ramsay just when it matters most, weakening the Boltons and causing the failure of their army from inside the walls.

At the wedding, he gave Sansa away as Theon of House Greyjoy. He was allowed, for the first time in forever, to reclaim his name, albeit for Ramsay's terrible purposes. They flashed back in the opening to his killing of the "Stark" boys, and recalled the disgust he felt with himself at the time. He has guilt at his actions and betrayal of the Starks, still has pangs of regret of the other awful things he did for his father, and seems to want redemption now. Sansa will be the catalyst for it, and since he believes she's the only living Stark ( he has no idea what has become of Bran and Rickon), saving her will be the only chance he has to recover himself. The rape, while terrible to watch, caused him great pain*, but will have consequences later when Theon decides that he's Theon again and forces him to "rescue" Sansa by murdering Ramsay. Stannis gets his Stark in Winterfell and it's because of Theon. The Boltons allowing Reek to identify as Theon, even for show, will come back to haunt them. Reek is useless as a character, and so why keep him around all this time? For this. I think the Starks finally get in the win column.

*Don't even get me started on using Sansa's rape to further Theon's "journey." The aftermath of Sansa being raped and the pain she felt should belong to Sansa only, and a "narrative device" such as this shouldn't have been used to affect any character but her. I hope they show Sansa dealing with it all in her way, but it appears they felt it necessary to use as a catalyst for Theon. Maybe they'll kill Ramsay together...

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05.21.2015 6:04pm

(Edited on 05.21.2015 at 7:31pm)

reido
(\/)(o,,,o)(\/)

I don't have a problem with northern storylines, to be totally honest (I won't get into That Scene because it's a loaded topic). They're not great, but the northern storylines in the book.

Dorne, however--Dorne in the books is my shit, Arianne and the Sand Snakes and Oberyn and Doran, and fucking "I AM THE NIGHT" Darkstar. Dorne on the show?

Jesus fucking Christ, this show. "We found this guy who wanted to sell us some information about our enemies, so we tortured it out of him instea--wait, hang on, not badass enough." *jams a spear in his head for no real reason* "That's better." Their entire plan is basically to kidnap and murder a teenage girl to start... a... war.

Shit. I just realized. ~~Elia~~ (shit!) Ellaria and the Sand Snakes are the shows Darkstar. ARGH.

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05.21.2015 11:47pm

Kellios
Yikes and away!

Call said:

*Don't even get me started on using Sansa's rape to further Theon's "journey." The aftermath of Sansa being raped and the pain she felt should belong to Sansa only, and a "narrative device" such as this shouldn't have been used to affect any character but her. I hope they show Sansa dealing with it all in her way, but it appears they felt it necessary to use as a catalyst for Theon. Maybe they'll kill Ramsay together...

Yeah. Unless Sansa and Theon end up castrating Ramsay and feeding him what remains, I just don't understand why it happened other than for shock value. I'm trying to give D&D the benefit of the doubt (really, I am), but I'm finding it difficult. Hopefully it can be expanded upon rather than giving Sansa a straight Jeyne Poole adaption.

And... oomph. Dorne. I feel like one of the few who liked the Sand Snakes in the books - fiesty hotheaded women as opposed to vengeful teenagers in the show. Jaime is also very much one dimensional, and feel there's really been opportunities wasted not including his book material, where he's like, "Shit, I can't fight anymore...I should figure something diplomatic out" as opposed to the show when Bronn asks the plan and Jaime basically replies, "LOL dunno fight first plan later."

Very frustrating. I like what the show is doing with Arya, Jon, Stannis, Dany (though grr Barristan death), and am looking forward to Cersei's arc, but the Nothern and Dorne plots really stick out badly.

Shit. I just realized. Elia (shit!) Ellaria and the Sand Snakes are the shows Darkstar. ARGH.

Though this is really funny and actually kinda hope now this is the case.

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05.22.2015 12:58am

Lexx
I know how they work

And... oomph. Dorne. I feel like one of the few who liked the Sand Snakes in the books - fiesty hotheaded women as opposed to vengeful teenagers in the show. Jaime is also very much one dimensional, and feel there's really been opportunities wasted not including his book material, where he's like, "Shit, I can't fight anymore...I should figure something diplomatic out" as opposed to the show when Bronn asks the plan and Jaime basically replies, "LOL dunno fight first plan later."

The Sand Snakes were the only part of the Dorne storyline that I liked. The show versions are just...blah. And don't get me started on the changes made to Jaime's storyline. Book Jaime was a character I reviled at first, grew to like, and is now my favorite in the series. For reasons I'll never understand, the show has royally screwed several key scenes in which his character grew in the books. Now, instead of his awesome chapters in the Riverlands, we get this schlock in Dorne. It's frustrating to watch.

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