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Vegetarianism
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0
 05.29.2012 9:42pm
Thread Creator

Atma Weapon
I Am Pure Energy

 I became a vegetarian about three months ago. This has been a fascinating and unique experience for me actually. I am shocked by the completeness and clarity of my conviction, as well as by the complete lack of lingering desire in me to eat other animals anymore. I would really like to know whether anyone else here has had a similar experience, or if anyone has any interesting insights to share with me on the topic. Also feel free to try to convince me otherwise, if you think I am missing anything.

I was recently re-exposed to the core philosophical argument behind why we should not eat other animals. I had heard this argument before in one of my college courses, but for whatever reason I either failed to fully comprehend it, or I did and didn't care.

The argument that convinced me goes like this:

1. Most non-human animals are capable of suffering. This certainly includes mammals and birds. It likely includes all vertebrates. It might include most or all shellfish. It probably does not include oysters, clams, scallops, etc.
2. The process of rearing animals as a food source causes suffering. Modern farming methods cause a great deal of suffering.
3. This suffering is unnecessary, because (a) we can obtain an adequate diet from other sources, and (b) the additional pleasure experienced by humans as we eat an animal is trivial compared to the suffering inflicted on the animal.
4. It is wrong to cause unnecessary suffering.
5. Therefore, we ought not to use animals for food, unless we can be sure that no unnecessary suffering occurred to produce the food.

This argument was popularized by the Australian philosopher Peter Singer. Having heard his argument in some interviews, and subsequently read his book on the subject, "Animal Liberation", I find the argument overwhelmingly convincing.

Anyone familiar with introductory Western philosophy will recognize this as a utilitarian argument. Even if one is not a utilitarian, he has a serious burden of evidence to explain why we are permitted to inflict great amounts of suffering for what is apparently no good reason ("I happen to enjoy the taste of meat, and it is the accepted societal norm to do so.")

I'm shocked by the clarity of this perspective. The most interesting thing about this experience has been the conversations I've had with people over meals, when I was asked about my choice of food. I've had to emphasize that I don't make negative judgements about people who eat animals, and that I it doesn't bother me when they order a burger or whatever. They claim to take me at my word (and it's the honest truth), but I often get the feeling some of them merely pretend to accept it in order to avoid conflict.

Like I said, very interesting experience. I don't see myself changing my mind anytime in the foreseeable future. Has anyone else had similar experiences, or has any story or insight to share on the topic?




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0
 05.29.2012 10:41pm
 (Edited on 05.29.2012 at 10:46pm)

Mavilu
Yep, still gaming



 Well, I was vegetarian about ten years ago, went back to meat because most everyone around considered it a waste of culinary talent if I only cooked vegetables and after finding out that my cholesterol has creeped up in these past ten years, I went back to vegetarianism.
I find it to be very practical and "clean" from a cook's point of view and it's better for my health overall, yes, I do notice it in several aspects, whomever thinks it's no difference in how you feel when you switch to vegetarian and viceversa either hasn't switched diets or hasn't switched for long. I also feel better, since I'm no longer chewing on meat, but of course, that's something that only those of us with crappy jaws experience, I also notice that I'm less tolerant of fat in a dish; a few days ago, I made a meatball soup for my husband that I have been making for more than 15 years and this time around, I couldn't stomach the grease coating my mouth. it's also logically easier to maintain or lose weight, provided that you eat well and not just load up on fries and cheese and call yourself a vegetarian.

There has been a lot of change in how people sees vegetarianism and vegetarians in general (vegans are a whole different topic of discussion); when I first started, people thought I was crazy, dumb or belonged to a weird cult or something, now most restaurants offer at least a vegetarian dish, there's tons more resources and most people around you don't even bat an eyelash at your dietary lifestyle choices any longer; many still think you are missing out on life or just making a silly sacrifice, but at least, they are nicer in how they convey those thoughts to you, yay aceptance, I guess?.

Even though I like that I'm one less person chewing up that cow, I don't really care about the moral aspects of vegetarianism and veganism; I admire those that feel so strongly for animals that way, but it's just not a deciding factor for me.
Either way, congratulations for taking such an important step in your life and let me say I admire your convition, remember to eat well and do take your vitamins.

Oh and by the way, the points you make for not eating meat are similar to hinduist / buddhist tenents of non-aggression, as well. That is exactly why they don't eat meat, to avoid being the causes of suffering for others and because they are aware of what chain of events all their actions cause; the whole karmic action I explained in the Dr. Laura-what's-her-name thread.




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0
 05.30.2012 12:47am


Ladile
Medic!
Atma Weapon said:

I'm shocked by the clarity of this perspective. The most interesting thing about this experience has been the conversations I've had with people over meals, when I was asked about my choice of food. I've had to emphasize that I don't make negative judgements about people who eat animals, and that I it doesn't bother me when they order a burger or whatever.


I appreciate that attitude.  On a personal level, I have no moral qualms with consuming animals or animal products as I believe it to be something that they're meant to be used for, in addition to being laborers and companions.  However, we in turn have a responsibility to take care of them as best as we can and not abuse them, whether they're a pet or an animal meant for slaughter.  I have no problem with people who choose, for whatever reason, to not eat animals.  I genuinely don't understand the "meat is murder and you're a terrible person" line of thinking that some people seem to have, though.

Also I'm not very versed on vegetarianism and I'm curious, is it necessary to supplement your diet?




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0
 05.30.2012 1:17am


Ulterior
Registered Member



 Anyone looking for the moral conviction of vegetarianism while still craving delicious meat can satisfy both ends. I'ts just a hell of a lot harder than it used to be. Find a locally sourced butcher shop or farm that supplies organics to restaurants or other outlets. They're hard to find, but doing your research on "farm to plate" is well worth the time and extra money IMO. It feels good to be absolutely sure that your chicken has no antibiotics, hormones or steriods in it.

Of course, with all that being said, there's no way humans were meant to eat meat two to three times a day like so many people do. MEat really should be limited to a few times a week. Even meat lovers should be familiar with the basics of vegetarian cooking. Beans and nuts are just as full of protein as your average cut of meat, and will also be healthier for you.



I love you, everything burrito.




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0
 05.30.2012 2:18am


Crono
Crono can cross dimensions too!



 I can understand someone's decision to become a vegetarian for your reasons, Atma.  I couldn't do it; if someone told me I couldn't have steak or slow cooked bbq pork I'd probably stab that person with a fork. 

You really need to be careful with a vegetarian diet though.  You need to make sure your protein and fat intake is a healthy amount.  I won't go in great detail about how animal fat is healthier than vegetable fats (sans maybe Coconut) because I'm no expert but feel free to do your own research on the subject.  A documentary called "Fat Head" is a good start; it starts out as a rebuttal to Morgan Spurlock's "Supersize Me" but turns into an argument against most people's views on cholsterol and animal fat. 

On a related note I have a nutritionist in my fiancee's family and she was a vegetarian for at least 8 years.  When she got pregnant she switched back to meat for "the baby's sake" and she isn't the first person I've heard of doing that.  Apparently, meat babies are healthier han veggie babies (so I've heard). 

TLDR: I'm pro meat but don't judge anyone who wants to stay away from it. 



Currently Playing: Dark Cloud 2: 3 hours.
Also Playing: CT, FF VI, Solatorobo, Secret of Mana, Halo 4.
Just Finished: Fable II: 7 hours.




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0
 05.30.2012 4:04am


Magicjewel
Dr. Fantabulous
Administrator



 I am a vegetarian, and I became so for many of the same reasons that you do.  The only thing that you really need to watch is to make sure you get plenty of protein (most real vegetarians I know are aware of this and take effort to make sure this happens though.  By real, I mean those that researched it, not those that play around with it.

If I could guarantee all my food was produced as ethically as possible, I would probably eat meat.  I craved meat the first couple of weeks (my former favorite food was shrimp), but nowadays I don't even want it anymore.  Every once in a while I will smell something that sounds a bit delicious and I will briefly wish I ate meat, but it goes away.  I also find that I eat better and think about my food's nutritional content more as a vegetarian.

I wouldn't go back unless a doctor told me I needed to for health reasons, but I will probably eat meat during pregnancy because my nutritional needs will be higher and I plan to continue working out while pregnant.



"Well, your brain seems to work a little bit." -- Rune Walsh, Phantasy Star IV.




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0
 05.30.2012 4:55am


Mavilu
Yep, still gaming



 Yes, protein can be a problem, however, even when I was eating meat I still was eating far less than what the A.D.A. says you must eat everyday and I have never had any problems with either muscle maintenance, fatigue or immunity. But I still pay attention to it because, just as Crono says, both fat and protein intake can go down fast, especially if you are really stocked about going healthy and all that in the beginning; as with everything, practice makes perfect and you start finding what works for you and what doesn't; I like to eat nuts most days, that way I get my fat and my protein with a good dose of fiber all at once.

Inadequacies in your diet is something that you have to watch for, but not only if you are shunning meat; too many meat eaters assume that just because they eat meat they are covered and don't need anything extra from Vitamin C to calcium, but when it comes to vegetarians, unless you do consume dairy and eggs many times a week and regularly, you do have to watch your vitamin B-12 intake, because you can only get B-12 from animal sources or fortified foods.
Iron used to be one of the supplements that were recommended for vegetarians but now they are starting to theorize that non-heme iron (that is, iron that comes from non-animal sources) might be as well absorbed as heme iron and therefore you might get adequate amounts with just a vegetarian diet.
Those are pretty much the two things I would keep an eye on and as I said, it depends on how you manage your diet; if ypou already eat a fortified cereal, for example, then you are more covered that most.

You do not need cholesterol in your diet whatsoever, we do make our own mostly from saturated fat and then partly from both poly and unsaturated fat, so that's not a worry; there is such a thing as having too low a cholesterol count, but it's not a worry in the western world, unless you are a most acerbic vegan.


The other thing I warn future vegetarians on is to be careful on their sharp rise on fiber intake on the first few weeks, because you naturally increase that with all the extra vegetables, nuts, fruits, cereals, etc., you set your poor intestines up for a ride; they can't handle all that extra fiber that soon and either you go a lot and get a lot of cramps or, if you don't drink sufficient liquids, you won't go at all.
So, easy does it, make sure to drink all your drinks and increase your fiber slowly; first, lots of vegetables, then you add the beans, later on you switch to whole grains (if that's what you want to do) and so on.




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0
 05.30.2012 5:35am


Onyx
Butts
Administrator



 I love meat and hate vegetables way too much to ever consider vegetarianism. The diet is definitely not for me as a numer of vegetables make me wretch due to yucky textures or less than delicious tastes.




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0
 05.30.2012 6:30am


Spidey
So Sigh Ety



 I love vegetables and meat both. I cannot stand eating a piece of meat by itself (not even steak - i like steak, but chopped into pieces with stir fried or steamed vegetables  HAVE to be there) but yet, I can't stand eating vegetables by themselves either. I am a pure omnivore - I need a mix of both for all possible meals. I recognize the health benefits of the vegetarian diet and respect anyone who is able to go that route. But to me it's just like playing video games. Are video games good for you? Would it be better to go study a subject or go run 10 miles everyday instead of play video games? Perhaps. But I enjoy video games/meat too much to make that sacrifice, but at the same time I maintain a balance by eating plenty of veggies and focusing on lean meats like chicken and fish, just as I balance video games in my life by also working, seeing friends and family , etc.  I enjoy my life by balancing  things that are good for me with things I love to do and it works.  But seriously , props to anyone who can maintain the vegetarian diet, It's good for you, and even more props if you don't even desire meat and are happy without it.   Glad for those who enjoy it, but it's not for me. 




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0
 05.30.2012 6:34am


Darth Howie
Darthpool
Administrator



 I don't judge dogs or cats for eating meat, so I won't judge people for it.  We are omnivores by design.  Without supplements, one can't have a balanced diet and be a vegetarian.  Are our current methods of farming meat ineffecient?  Yes.  They absolutely are.  But it's possible to find meat that was farmed more ethically if you are willing to put in the money (it's always more expensive) and effort in. 



Woe unto he who tries to be helpful, for upon him shall be lain the burdens of all.

- Squall 15:11




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0
 05.30.2012 6:47am


Zophycakes
I'M FROM THE INTERNETTTT
Administrator



 I have a really awful aversion to a lot of leafy greens and find the texture to be repulsive beyond my control. Being a vegetarian would be really difficult for me, but I wish it wasn't like that. I'm pretty concerned about my long-term health and try to make up for it where I can. My goal over the next couple years is to shift to pescetarian, or near to that.




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0
 05.30.2012 7:11am


Onyx
Butts
Administrator



 As someone with similar problems with vegetables, Zoph, I've become rather fond of spinach. Especially cooked in an omelette. It doesn't really have much of a noticable texture and can taste really good when cooked right. I wish onions especially had more tolerable texture. I love the taste of onions, but the texture makes me gag. Onion rings have to be fried just right (or like onion straws) or else I can't tolerate them.

Sadly spinach does not give you superhuman strength.




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0
 05.30.2012 7:20am


Zophycakes
I'M FROM THE INTERNETTTT
Administrator



 Yeah, spinach has creeped into a couple of dishes I've tried. I found a really awesome vegan lentil soup recipe that called for it and it was amazing.

I deal with the same thing with onions, too. Having them dried/dehydrated is a good solution.




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0
 05.30.2012 1:10pm


amaron
No answer, must be that deaf bitch.



 Over the last year or so I've found that I've moved more towards chicken than red meat or pork. Chicken is cheaper and (IMO) you can do more with it.

Not that I don't like a nice steak, I just can't make one at home.




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0
 05.30.2012 1:20pm
Thread Creator

Atma Weapon
I Am Pure Energy

 If anything I am doing a better job with nutritional balance now, compared with before. This is more likely because I am thinking about it more, rather than because of the absence of meat. Either way I feel as healthy and vigorous now as I ever have.

I didn't go vegan, so the nutrient balance has not been difficult. In theory a vegan diet can be maintained long term, provided that the individual eats a wide variety of proteins (for the essential amino acids) and takes a vitamin B12 supplement. Adequate iron really isn't an issue if beans and legumes are are included as protein sources, as they are in nearly all vegetarian diets. I personally added a multivitamin once daily, but this is actually recommended by most physicians regardless of dietary habits.

I did go to organic free range eggs. It's not practical to check egg sources at restaurants, so I haven't been worrying about that. Legalism in the diet is psychologically unhealthy, but awareness of the ethics of mt food choices is proving a very rewarding exercise; it causes me to think critically about the consequences due to a much wider ranger of choices that I rarely thought of previously.




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