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Rethinking (Alleged) Mistranslations





0
 07.01.2013 3:43pm


Darth Howie
Darthpool
Administrator



I don't know how anyone can read the FFVIA script and think that it's not lacking in personality and isn't too on-the-nose. I really don't.

edit: I also don't see how ANY improvements in ANY other part of the script can make up for ruining Kefka. If you think FFVIA's Kefka was in any way superior to Woolsey's I have no ability to comprehend the criteria you use to evaluate a script.

Also remembered that FFVIA changed that Shadow would "slit his mama's throat for a nickel" to "would kill his best friend for the right price." How is that not worse?



Woe unto he who tries to be helpful, for upon him shall be lain the burdens of all.

- Squall 15:11




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0
 07.01.2013 6:28pm


The Hulk
Good Boy



Because "mama" and "nickel" aren't used in it.




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0
 07.01.2013 6:53pm


Crisium
N/A



Darth Howie said:

edit: I also don't see how ANY improvements in ANY other part of the script can make up for ruining Kefka. If you think FFVIA's Kefka was in any way superior to Woolsey's I have no ability to comprehend the criteria you use to evaluate a script.

Kefka as a whole was worse in Advance.  But he gets one great new line in Thamasa:

"This little hamlet has too much boring and not enough burning! Torch everything!"

I'll take the original Kefka just with that one addition as my ideal version, please.

I don't think it was mentioned yet, but Cyan's scene in Nikeah in better in FFVIA.  Another plus.

I like how you brought up Setzer's intro.  Mog is also way better with Woolsey:

"Human-loving, fast-talking, street-smart, SLAM-dancing Moogle . . . "

FFVIA:

A moogle who speaks the words of men, and can summon the earth's power through his dance . . . "

I just like Woolsey's charm here.




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0
 07.01.2013 10:01pm
 (Edited on 07.01.2013 at 10:10pm)

Ashilyn
Career GM



Darth Howie said:

I don't know how anyone can read the FFVIA script and think that it's not lacking in personality and isn't too on-the-nose. I really don't.

edit: I also don't see how ANY improvements in ANY other part of the script can make up for ruining Kefka. If you think FFVIA's Kefka was in any way superior to Woolsey's I have no ability to comprehend the criteria you use to evaluate a script.

Also remembered that FFVIA changed that Shadow would "slit his mama's throat for a nickel" to "would kill his best friend for the right price." How is that not worse?

"slit his mama's throat for a nickle" sounds like poorly written juvinile tripe from a young adult Game of THrones wannabe or otherwise corney book. "Would kill his best friend for the right price" sounds more mature and better written, and gets the point across and sounds very threatening without sounding as hackneyed and forced.

You guys keep throwing around words like "witty" and "adolescent" and "dry" and I'm not convinced you actually know how they're supposed to be used, since those are the last descriptors I would give to the scripts they're being applied to. Woosley wasn't witty. Working Designs was witty, as much as I hate Vic Ireland. Woosley was silly and cliche. FFVIA is more serious and gives the story a more appropriate tone without resorting so some of the terrible idioms and shortcuts Woosley used to make things appeal to Square and Nintendo's target audiance of younger 90s gamers. I, for one, don't understand how it's more dry or has less personality. Reading the Woosley script and then reading the FFVIA script, to me, is like going from some young adult adventure book I read in high school to Mistborn or Game of Thrones in terms of how it's written and the quality of said writing - one gets it's point across, but is sillier and more "creative" designed and worded, while one is more adult, more contemporary, and uses less flowery "creative" laungage in favour of more accurately and meaningfully displaying descriptions and events. The latter style still has the same basic flavour as the former, but delivers it in a much more emotional, palpable, meaningful manner.







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0
 07.02.2013 12:23am


Crono
Crono can cross dimensions too!



Ashilyn said:

"slit his mama's throat for a nickle" sounds like poorly written juvinile tripe from a young adult Game of THrones wannabe or otherwise corney book. "Would kill his best friend for the right price" sounds more mature and better written, and gets the point across and sounds very threatening without sounding as hackneyed and forced.
I think the two lines get different points across.  Saying "for a nickel" implies that he has no threshold of caring about who he hurts.  "For the right price" implies he at least cares SOMEONE about the person, and in this case it's an even lower on the totem pole (at least for most people) peson.  I'm not arguing what I think is the better line or not, just saying they have different meanings in my opinion.



Currently Playing: Dark Cloud 2: 3 hours.
Also Playing: CT, FF VI, Solatorobo, Secret of Mana, Halo 4.
Just Finished: Fable II: 7 hours.




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0
 07.02.2013 12:34am


Darth Howie
Darthpool
Administrator



Ashilyn said:

"slit his mama's throat for a nickle" sounds like poorly written juvinile tripe from a young adult Game of THrones wannabe or otherwise corney book. "Would kill his best friend for the right price" sounds more mature and better written, and gets the point across and sounds very threatening without sounding as hackneyed and forced.

You guys keep throwing around words like "witty" and "adolescent" and "dry" and I'm not convinced you actually know how they're supposed to be used, since those are the last descriptors I would give to the scripts they're being applied to. Woosley wasn't witty. Working Designs was witty, as much as I hate Vic Ireland. Woosley was silly and cliche. FFVIA is more serious and gives the story a more appropriate tone without resorting so some of the terrible idioms and shortcuts Woosley used to make things appeal to Square and Nintendo's target audiance of younger 90s gamers. I, for one, don't understand how it's more dry or has less personality. Reading the Woosley script and then reading the FFVIA script, to me, is like going from some young adult adventure book I read in high school to Mistborn or Game of Thrones in terms of how it's written and the quality of said writing - one gets it's point across, but is sillier and more "creative" designed and worded, while one is more adult, more contemporary, and uses less flowery "creative" laungage in favour of more accurately and meaningfully displaying descriptions and events. The latter style still has the same basic flavour as the former, but delivers it in a much more emotional, palpable, meaningful manner.

You must've been reading a different Song of Ice and Fire than me, because I can think of dozens of lines of dialogue that were loaded with broad comedy, snark and idioms. I think you're confusing maturity with lack of humor. Is the Woolsey script perfect? No. I think FFVIA's NPC dialogue was clearer on the whole. But the core plot dialogue in Woolsey's translation remains punchier, funnier, more memorable and more full of personality than the bland, by-the-numbers, on-the-nose script it was replaced with in FFVIA. I don't see why a game where a talking Octopus crashes an Opera needs to be written super-seriously. Woolsey's script stops short of a Working Design translation because that level of comedy would be a step too far. But it has plenty of humor because it keeps the tone fun and entertaining for most of the early going, which is perfectly acceptable and even desirable. It's not like the script is cracking jokes at Cyan when he's watching his family board the Phantom Train.




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1
 07.02.2013 2:25am
 (Edited on 07.02.2013 at 2:31am)

Spidey
So Sigh Ety



I must be the only one who enjoys both translations, but for different reasons. I find the Woosley script much more engaging ,charming and interesting, but I find the FFVIA script much more detailed, realistic and, informative.  It's really a give and take, I get something different out of each script. I just started up a playthrough of FFVIA again since I've only played it once, so I can judge properly with a second go around veruss my 25 something playthroughs of FFVI SNES.

Also, I find the criteria that it has to sound like what people would say to each other in real life extremely unforgiving. Do you honestly think most great works of entertainment  follow this rule with some of their best lines?   If you look at Arrested Development, 99% of the shit they say isn't anything anyone would ever say, particularly because you aren't listening to a full on conversation. I think the only literary medium that should follow such a criteria are books because they don't have other forms for the authors to present their ideas; whereas games have music and visuals to convey  a lot of what's going on, allowing the words to be more flexibile and indeed a lot less realistic in the interest of charm and character. You don't need to know that Locke doesn't want to lose another girl who likes because you can see his little facial expression changes whenever he tries to help Celes.  You can also fill the gaps in their conversation with many other details....really don't feel like all the dialogue has to be 100% realistic.




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0
 07.02.2013 2:40am


Crono
Crono can cross dimensions too!



I enjoy (and in fact did say it earlier) both versions.  On the fly I'm more likely to favor a certain part of the SNES version more but I still feel very satisfied with GBA version.  That's funny, I just started a replay of the GBA version yesterday but with the sound and graphics patches to make it more like the SNES version.  I poped that on my PSP (no lag like on GBA console) and we have a pretty damn good portable version of the game.




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0
 07.02.2013 2:46am


Crisium
N/A



Crono said:

That's funny, I just started a replay of the GBA version yesterday but with the sound and graphics patches to make it more like the SNES version.

I'm so glad I found the SNES music patch for my last two playthroughs of FFVIA.  The GBA music is markedly worse and really need it. 

I didn't know wabout a graphics patch though.  Does it fix slowdown?  Or the aspect ratio?




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0
 07.02.2013 2:53am


Crono
Crono can cross dimensions too!



I can't speak for PC emulation but on my PSP there is WAYY less slowdown and thats with an unpatched rom.  It doesn't change the ratio either, just fixes the color palette.

If you google Final Fantasy VI Restore you'll find a great site with links to patches and roms (not linking due to roms).




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0
 07.04.2013 3:38am


SuperSquall
Shortening His Posts



Ashilyn said:
You guys keep throwing around words like "witty" and "adolescent" and "dry" and I'm not convinced you actually know how they're supposed to be used, since those are the last descriptors I would give to the scripts they're being applied to.
Right, so you would define a word differently, therefore we must not know what the word means at all.  But I promise you I have a similar amount of respect for your opinions on what those words mean as well.  That you seem to equate "adult" with longer sentences that convey less doesn't make much sense to me.  I call them dry, because a straight forward descriptive sentence can be written by any idiot.  Anyone can write dialogue that *just* communicates a state of being, although a bad writer does it with extra words.  What is more important is writing dialogue which is both subtle but allows the reader to also learn something about the character that is speaking it.  If we consider Locke in the Woolsey translation - you can tell things such as "Locke is very particular about protecting women, particularly when the Empire is involved" but the first time you ever know there is any history about it is when Edgar asks Locke if he is still thinking about "that".  In the FFVI-A version Locke is waving it in our face in his first ten minutes of screen time.  It lets us know something about Locke in both instances, but in one it is being done for an audience that knows slightly bigger words, and in the other it is being done for the audience that knows more about everything else.

Woosley wasn't witty.  Working Designs was witty, as much as I hate Vic Ireland.
Yes, because putting a reference to a Wheaties commercial in your video game is wit.  I'll agree that Working Designs had some wit in their games, but don't kid yourself about the product they delivered.

Woosley was silly and cliche. FFVIA is more serious and gives the story a more appropriate tone without resorting so some of the terrible idioms and shortcuts Woosley used to make things appeal to Square and Nintendo's target audiance of younger 90s gamers. I, for one, don't understand how it's more dry or has less personality. Reading the Woosley script and then reading the FFVIA script, to me, is like going from some young adult adventure book I read in high school to Mistborn or Game of Thrones in terms of how it's written and the quality of said writing - one gets it's point across, but is sillier and more "creative" designed and worded, while one is more adult, more contemporary, and uses less flowery "creative" laungage in favour of more accurately and meaningfully displaying descriptions and events. The latter style still has the same basic flavour as the former, but delivers it in a much more emotional, palpable, meaningful manner.
I think you are kidding yourself.  I promise you, we can go through this exercise for about 80% of the script but ask yourself: is Setzer a free spirit, motivated only by himself, or is he on a quest for refuge from the morals of society?  I say he's a free spirit, and so does Woolsey, and in my mind so does the game itself.  What act of rebellion against the morals of society does Setzer ever undertake? He does the exact opposite when he joins the Returners - he rebels on behalf of the morals of the public. Either way, when does he ever speak of the subject of societal morality, or even what other people think?  Yet the FFVI-A translation defines him based on that, even though it has nothing to do with him.  Woolsey's translation states that Setzer is a gambler and indeed we see him gamble over a coin toss very soon after meeting him.  It states he is a free spirit and we see him follow his own conscience, but also live his life by his emotions.  The fact is one may use language you subjectively consider more "adult" and descriptive, but it isn't even describing the person correctly.  *That's* what's wrong with the translation.  It understands English just fine (although nothing more than "fine"), what it doesn't understand is the story, the characters, or even storytelling in general.

But I digress: Let's just go back to the challenge I posted earlier.  Give me a great, memorable line from FFVI-A that isn't lifted straight from the Woolsey translation.  I really hope you find one, because great writing is a wonderful thing.  I will even occasionally go through my book collection and locate my favorite sentences from books and read them for pleasure.  Here is the script for FFVI-A I have been referencing:
https://www.gamefaqs.com/gba/930370-final-fantasy-vi-advance/faqs/47016

And here is the FF3 one for good measure:
https://ca.ign.com/faqs/2004/final-fantasy-iii-us-game-script-429392

And on a slightly different note: I just checked the script to both games and noticed something for the first time which I think is very interesting.  At the Opera after Ultros crunches Ralse and Draco Locke gets up and does his speech, he doesn't say "[I shall save] Maria" he says "[I shall save] Celes".  It's in both translations, and I wonder if they intentionally put that in there as a bit of a Freudian slip from Locke.




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0
 07.04.2013 7:48am


The Hulk
Good Boy



SuperSquall said:
What act of rebellion against the morals of society does Setzer ever undertake?.
Flagrant kidnap.




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0
 07.05.2013 1:33am
 (Edited on 07.05.2013 at 1:40am)

SuperSquall
Shortening His Posts



The Hulk said:

Flagrant kidnap.
Which he totally doesn't do to grandstand.  Recall, our quote states that Setzer is finding freedom from society's narrow views of morality aboard his airship.  Now we could nitpick and find a way to twist things to show that abducting a woman in a packed opera house at the height of the action would be what we expect from an amoral recluse, but I think it seems more in line with what we would call a free spirit.  Yeah, he did something that would be outside of a narrow view of morality.  If we ignore context your point works.




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0
 07.05.2013 2:40am


ahninjas
likes 'em pretty



As much as I'd like to add to this discussion, the idea of SuperSquall waving off Celes' abduction by Setzer with a mere "Oh that scallywag!" amuses me to no end.








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0
 07.05.2013 3:52am


SuperSquall
Shortening His Posts



ahninjas said:

As much as I'd like to add to this discussion, the idea of SuperSquall waving off Celes' abduction by Setzer with a mere "Oh that scallywag!" amuses me to no end.
On the contrary, I think it's a very big deal, it just supports the Woolsey description and ought to be waved off as evidence suggesting the FFVI-A one is credible.  He clearly is a badass who plays by his own rules, not a reclusive moralist.  The abduction scene is awesome (the whole opera scene is awesome), and at the apex of this monumental moment a black-jack playing, casino dwelling free spirit shows up and steals the show (and the girl) for himself.  Ralse takes Maria from Draco, but then Draco shows up and the duel begins, and then Ultros squashes them both, but then Locke declares he's going to get the girl and beats down Ultros, and then Setzer shows up and like a trump card beats them all down and literally soars away with the girl in his arms.  Because Setzer is awesome.  Just like Woolsey said he was.




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