How to get women into science. (Page 3) | General Discussion | Forums

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How to get women into science.

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06.29.2012 10:29am

Kal
yes

Spidey said:
However I am curious, does anyone know how to actually get more women into science? Ovbiously this video wasn't going to do anything even if it wasn't offensive. but what needs to be done? Some of the offices I've worked at and clases i've taken had a 30 to 1 ratio of men to women, which is flat out as ridiculous as this video. It does have to do with intersest, for some reason, despite being really good at math and physics, many women choose not to go into these fields, and I just don't understand the lack of interest there.

I spent a semester in an Advanced Physics/Chemistry course after highschool and then another semester in Engineering/Math/Physics and at least 40% (if not more) of the students there were female, and I gotta admit, I wasn't expecting that ratio and mostly they were better students than the guys.
I don't think women don't want to go into science, I think they are misrepresented in that field because somewhere down the line (wether it's during their studies or when they are looking for a job or when they're trying to get ahead in their career) they are met with a very outdated "raw raw science is for MEN" attitude and just can't go further... so they end up teaching.
I think it's just that from childhood, pop culture teaches girls that they don't need science. Boys are taught how to do stuff, girls are taught to be pretty and stfu if they want to succeed. Just look at kids toys, boys gets toolkits and cars and science kits, girls get pink dolls, ponies, bake sets and whatnot.

Sam Biscuits > Does your wife know how condescending an opinion you have of her ? ... wow... Also, if she's an adult and doesn't know what a map of the world looks like well... I don't know what to say except that she is definitely not representative of women as a whole.

Mav > Having worked with several ad agencies, I can say with confidence that a lot of them are completely disconnected from the real world and have absolutely no idea how to "talk" to women in general and 90% of their ads only serve to reinforce gender stereotypes.
Take a commercial: if it's selling a household product, diapers or baby products, cooking stuff or clothes, 99% chance it'll feature a woman or a group of women discussing which is best. If it's selling a car, a liquor, a video-game or some sort of tool, it'll feature dudes.
I remember a couple years back people called a Wii ad revolutionary here because it featured *shudder* people of color and women !
Ads are only a slightly exaggerated version of real life stereotypes but they also work to reinforce those stereotypes. If ads say that women clean at home, then it probably means that society as a whole thinks it's normal that women should clean the house and so society is shocked when a woman actually wants to do something with her life.
Look at ads from the 50's, they mostly featured woman who were happy to be not much more than glorified servants to their husbands.

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06.29.2012 7:31pm

Sam Biscuits
Custard Creams

Mavilu said:

Well, but just because your wife and her friends aren't interested in science, doesn't mean there aren't other women interested in science, or sports, or videogames or corporate jobs or whatever supposed bastions of masculinity are out there.
I am the exact opposite of your wife, I don't know what Shades of Grey is, I know who Gandhi was, etc. etc, (by the way, she just doesn't remember what the periodic table is, I can't believe she doesn't know what it is, as I can't imagine it isn't taught in schools around the world) and I'm still not interested in sience too much, unless it has to do with my baking (can't do it without knowing a few basics), so what gives.

My post was tongue in cheek and flippant, and don't believe the examples I gave represent all women. With regards to the science work environment being the last bastion of masculinity, well where I work it appears so, rightly or wrongly.

Kal said:

Sam Biscuits > Does your wife know how condescending an opinion you have of her ? ... wow... Also, if she's an adult and doesn't know what a map of the world looks like well... I don't know what to say except that she is definitely not representative of women as a whole.

Kal, have you not just the same thing the very next sentence after accusing me? I do not have a condescending opinion of my wife, she can be blonde and ditsy, it is usually a source of comedy to herself and friends as much as to me, though at times it can be incredulous. She takes the piss out off my interests and thinks a 28 year old interested in video games And my other interests needs "to grow up and stop playing games". Meh, different strokes for different folks. It'd be boring if we all liked the same things and had the same politically acceptable opinions.

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06.29.2012 7:57pm

Kal
yes

Sam Biscuits said:

Kal, have you not just the same thing the very next sentence after accusing me?

Yeah but I'm not, you know, married to her...

I do not have a condescending opinion of my wife, she can be blonde and ditsy, it is usually a source of comedy to herself and friends as much as to me, though at times it can be incredulous. She takes the piss out off my interests and thinks a 28 year old interested in video games And my other interests needs "to grow up and stop playing games". Meh, different strokes for different folks. It'd be boring if we all liked the same things and had the same politically acceptable opinions.

I was just sayin those couple lines don't paint a very flattering portrait of her, is all, and I was wondering why you had to use her as an example of how women aren't interested in science (by demeaning her interests and pointing out her lack of culture) only to finish by saying she really isn't representative of women in general anyway. It's kind of a weird way to form an argument. *shrugs*

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06.29.2012 8:21pm

Sam Biscuits
Custard Creams

I meant she doesn't represent all women I mean how can she, she's only one person! How ever in my experience her and her interests are the status quo among women I know, the flip side I suppose is men and sport.

Maybe a cliché, but a cliché usually is one for a reason.

Lack of culture is subjective surely? Mav hasn't heard of Fity Shades of Grey (lucky her but I'm sure she will!). I think the book is nothing just porn written to appeal to women, I think as much of that as she does to A Game of Thrones I'm reading. I made those points to highlight how my wife has interests far removed from science and her lack of scientific knowledge isn't totally down to ignorance but of a total lack of interest in the subject.

Seems it came across wrong, but hey, we're debating/arguing over a video so bad it looks like a parody of a bad video.

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06.29.2012 8:57pm

Ladile
Medic!

Yeah, I do agree with Mav that some of it may be because science is still considered a field for men by some people, and I also agree with Sam that some if it is probably genuine lack of interest. I know several men and women who aren't stupid, but just don't give a rat's ass about certain topics. I have a friend who could probably excel in any field that he put his mind to, and for a while, he pursued the "science" route (I can't remember what he wanted to study specifically). He eventually changed track and just finished his Masters degree in history. He'll probably end up teaching on a college level in the long run. When I asked him about why he changed course, he simply said, "I understand how these things work (whichever field it was, biochemistry maybe) but I realized that I just don't care."

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06.30.2012 1:36am

(Edited on 06.30.2012 at 1:42am)

Mavilu
Yep, still gaming

Kal, you are right about representation by the ad agencies, but I wonder, because this their business, they have to know exactly what to show, they must follow social trends in order for people to feel that not just them, but their world is represented, if I don't identify with that lady driving the newest SUV in the TV ad I'm watching (even if what I used to identify myself is totally ficticious), I won't feel it is for me and I won't buy it, so no ad agency worth it's salt will present and ad that is totally out of the loop to a client, unless the client specifically asks for it. Sure, they tend to stylize everything (older people are always thin, fit, dressed pretty nicely and are still madly in love with each other, to give an example) but that it because we want to see ourselves like that, not because the ad agencies think we are like that, all pretty and tanned and well dressed and neat and living in +million dollar houses.
So, I'm pretty sure that the general idea (women and lipstick and giggles and guys in lab coats looking, etc.) was originated somewhere other than in the poor agency that had to work with this (in fact, I'm surprised any agency accepted to work in this project) and they just took the draft that was presented to them and did whatever they could with it.

But back to the message as it was meant to be, what is it exactly, because Ladile mentions that not everyone is interested in science (and that's okay) and Sam mentions that culture is subjective (and that's okay, too) and Kal mentions that there are several organisms that are completely out of touch (that's not okay), we know that women are smart enough to get into science careers and we agree that it's the environment that generally prevents women from taking those jobs, so, I'm a woman, let's suppose I'm young enough to be at the point in which I decide what I'll study in college and I see this ad... what message am I to get from this, exactly?

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06.30.2012 1:44am

Atma Weapon
I Am Pure Energy

I am an industrial engineer, and we are just about 50/50 male/female.

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06.30.2012 4:32am

Tristan
Just Giv'r

That song sucks.

I'm not even going to touch on the idea behind it as I don't have a very high opinion of most "equality" initiatives. Don't get me wrong, absolutely the right idea but everything is so hamm-fisted for that kind of thing that it'd be laughable if people weren't getting screwed on both sides.

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07.05.2012 7:18pm

(Edited on 07.05.2012 at 8:56pm)

Spidey
So Sigh Ety

MJ, I actually would be interested. I'm pretty curious about this as it baffles me completely. I mean I can see how women are discouraged, but I'd like to see the exact things and institutions in place in certain math/science fields where women are scarce vs other mathscience fields where women are the majority. It's pretty crazy that even a distinction at that level happens.

Mavilu said:

Could it be that the environment for studying/working with science is still a bit stiff when it comes to welcoming women?, I daily hear the grief women go through just to play a videogame that isn't "girly", I would pressume that there is resistance in those bastions of masculinity I refered to before. Maybe there isn't any resistance, but women in general are afraid that there is and aren't willing to see for themselves.
Maybe these jobs don't pay as well as they pay for a man and so women don't want to waste their potential, all in all, I think and with this I mean no offense, nor am I interested in an ethics debate, but as I was saying, all in all, I think there might still be a bit of resistance. Now, I know you are all young and even more accepting that the men of my age or older, you all believe in equality and all the jazz, but the work force isn't made of just people young as you.

Probably a combination of all of the above, good points. It goes without saying that I agree 100% that it's an environmental/encouragement thing, and nothing to do with men or women being any more or less smarter than each other.

Kal, my experience was completely different. In my upper division mechanical and aerospace engineering courses the ratio really was about 20 to 1. It's about that in the workplace as well. I had a 40-60 ratio or so in my lower division physics and math courses, but then most of the women dissapeared and/or went into their specific discplines (Biology, bioengineering, math, chemistry, etc)

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