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Final Fantasy Online Forums  >  Video Gaming Discussion  >  Gaming Discussion

Tropes vs. Women 2: Here We Go Again



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0
 05.29.2013 1:58pm
Thread Creator

Vyers
Dark Adonis



Been waiting on this one for a while.
Have at it lads!






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0
 05.29.2013 3:33pm


CaButler
Winter Knight of the Unseelie Court



You know, I think she'd have more impact if she actually discussed what games are doing it right instead of focusing entirely on what's wrong with them.

That's just how I would do things.  You know, like they do in Extra Credits.




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0
 05.29.2013 6:26pm


Onyx
Butts
Administrator



Her trolls tried to get the video taken down by spam-flagging it.  They failed and now it has even more publicity.

Anita Sarkeesian has the dumbest trolls in the history of the internet.




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0
 05.29.2013 6:30pm


Zubis
Registered Member



Am I the only one that dislikes most of the games in this video because the stories are rubbish in general? Sexist yes, but that's not the only reason they're shite.




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0
 05.29.2013 6:38pm
 (Edited on 05.29.2013 at 6:44pm)

Murasame
HALE YEAH



Zubis said:

Am I the only one that dislikes most of the games in this video because the stories are rubbish in general? Sexist yes, but that's not the only reason they're shite.

A good argument against sexism, then.

This episode was 90% a deconstruction of the harmfulness of the trope, and so obviously it's essentially 90% criticism, but I'm really looking forward to the next episode, which goes into the trope reversal. This episode was just an example of the trope played fairly straight. For such a common trope, it's a terrible idea to play a trope straight.

The examples of the combinations of tropes (typically damsel + refrigerator) raises the point that even when characters are functionally weak anyway (such as when they are children), they're still presented as female. How often are you chasing after a 12 year old son instead of a daughter? It wouldn't be too much to suggest that it is because of ingrained and systemic sexism, because there's no functional difference between a daughter in distress or a son.




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0
 05.29.2013 6:48pm


Dr Squirrel
medicine woman



i don't even want to know how this thread's going to turn out after the last one



trust me, i'm a doctor




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0
 05.29.2013 6:52pm


Ashilyn
Career GM



I would be so much more open to this whole video series if it was what it was actually supposed to be - engaging the internet community in discussion about these tropes and how they can be adjusted or changed. Instead, it's turned to her going "You're wrong, here's why" and they refusing to lisiten to any sort of rebuttal or counter argument,, instead acalling anyone who presents anything like that a troll. She may have good intentions, but this video continues to prove she has no idea what she's doing. I would feel insulted if I donated money to these.







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1
 05.29.2013 7:51pm


Fincher
Deep Water Horizon



"Violence against women is a serious global epidemic..."

I would say that violence in general is a serious global epidemic.  I wouldn't blame video games for that, and despite people often claiming a causal link, experts tend not support such a claim because of a lack of actual evidence.  I think that if a case is going to be made for artists having a responsibility to depict positive messages rather than be motivated by their own interests, creativity, and artistic vision, then first you need to be able to demonstrate that it has a certain impact on society instead of simply declaring it to be self-evident.  To me, this is the same sort of unsubstantiated attack on the gaming industry as saying that violent video games cause school shootings, albeit without the lawsuits or the push for bans.  Just because people commit violence in games and then people commit violence in real life doesn't mean that people commit violence in real life because of violence in games.

The examples of some of the tropes mentioned may well illustrate a lack of originality in the industry (I'm not committing to that because we're not being shown statistics, and because I don't know most of these games and therefore don't know the context or execution), and I have no problem with that as a criticism of the quality, although that depends on how much the individual player likes the tropes in question.  Some tropes I never get tired of, some get old fast, and some I don't like in the first place.  I also have no problem whatsoever with playing as women in games or women having agency.  I like female playable characters.  And it may well be in developers' financial best interests to do more of this.  I just don't think developers have some obligation to not have damsels in distress in their games if they want to have damsels in distress in their games.



Currently playing: Professor Layton and the Diabolical Box, Picross DS
Last played: Time Hollow (good)
Last watched: Agent Carter (very good)
Me on Favslist





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0
 05.29.2013 8:12pm


Murasame
HALE YEAH



Fincher said:

I would say that violence in general is a serious global epidemic.

And you would be wrong - at least in regards to where this video is relevant. Violent crime is, in most places that this video is relevant to, not particularly an issue. Sure, the source I use isn't the best, but it's still relevant.

I would argue that the statement she makes isn't necessarily true (that it's an epidemic), but we are far more aware of the issue of violence against women than we were in the past, so it may appear to be an epidemic. Our approach to it, however, should be the same - treat it like an epidemic, and we'll see some results.

This isn't an attack on games, or gamers. This isn't suggesting malicious intent. This is suggesting ignorance, and ignorance can be just as damaging as actively participating in negative behaviour. Simply ignoring negative behaviour won't make it go away, and not participating in this discussion could be analogous to ignoring someone's pleas to not be trodden upon.

I suppose it all comes down to social responsibility. And whilst some say that there is no necessity for social responsibility (objectivists, for example), it is typically in humanity's best interest to be socially responsible. I, personally, think there's a necessity to be at least partially sensitive to your audience. An audience that is, according to some reports, ~40% female, should be acknowledged.




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0
 05.29.2013 8:24pm


Darth Howie
Darthpool
Administrator



Yeah. Not taking the bait. Have fun, y'all.



Woe unto he who tries to be helpful, for upon him shall be lain the burdens of all.

- Squall 15:11




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0
 05.29.2013 8:28pm


Wipwned
YEEEEEAAAH!



Ashilyn said:

I would be so much more open to this whole video series if it was what it was actually supposed to be - engaging the internet community in discussion about these tropes and how they can be adjusted or changed. Instead, it's turned to her going "You're wrong, here's why" and they refusing to lisiten to any sort of rebuttal or counter argument,, instead acalling anyone who presents anything like that a troll. She may have good intentions, but this video continues to prove she has no idea what she's doing. I would feel insulted if I donated money to these.

I had pretty much the same opinion. While there are a lot of valid points throughout the video, the overall message gets bogged down entirely by those select few moments where she throws objectivity out the window and treats the subject with derision. You can't strike your audience across the nose with a newspaper then say "Hater's gonna hate" when it incites a reaction.




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0
 05.29.2013 8:32pm


Onyx
Butts
Administrator



To be fair, the statistic of "Murders per hundred thousand" can be pretty deceptive for a country like the US. Compared to third world countries, it's pretty low, but we still have well over 300 million people here. The percentage rate itself is low, but it's still a lot of dead bodies. Not to mention the parts of the country where these sort of crimes are underreported or counted for whatever reason, like poor, mostly black inner cities.




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0
 05.29.2013 9:09pm
 (Edited on 05.29.2013 at 10:40pm)

Fincher
Deep Water Horizon



Murasame said:
Violent crime is, in most places that this video is relevant to, not particularly an issue. Sure, the source I use isn't the best, but it's still relevant.

Which doesn't really support the idea that video games propagate violence, does it?

There was (and maybe still is) a persistent claim that porn leads to more rape, but the correlation is the opposite: when there was more porn, there was less rape.  I strongly suspect that porn provides an outlet for sexual impulses, and that people rape less often because they're using porn as a much preferrable alternative.  By the same token, I'd say that it's good to channel our biologically ingrained violent impulses into video games, because the alternative would be actual violence.  You ever think about how back in the old days, when there was a lot less entertainment, people would go to public executions?  Certainly, the solution isn't to eliminate violence in the media and expect it to disappear from society, because we never needed to be taught it.  Instead, society teaches us to redirect it into horror movies and true crime TV and sports and whatever else isn't violent crime.

Incidentally, one of the ways society has redirected violence is to tell boys that it's wrong to hit girls.  You can hit other boys, just not girls.  Anita's more or less contradicting herself by saying that video games teach us that women are weak and need to be protected by men and also teach us to hurt women.  Um, what?  Society has traditionally taught us not to hurt women because they're weaker than men and non-violent and like girly things like shopping and makeup and romance, and men are rough and rowdy manly men that want to play football and wrestle, and if your boy doesn't want be like that, then he needs to stop being a pussy and put some hair on his chest.  If another boy punches him, he can't go crying about it.  He needs to punch him right back.

If the gender slate is cleaned, and women are treated the same as men, the proportionate amount of (non-sexual) violence toward women will go up.  Double standards, both those that serve women's interests and those that don't, are inextricably linked.  If someone is going to commit violence, they won't pass over a woman to attack a man instead.  Women can take care of themselves.  They don't need a man to rescue them.  They're a playable character, not a damsel in distress.

I suppose it all comes down to social responsibility. And whilst some say that there is no necessity for social responsibility (objectivists, for example), it is typically in humanity's best interest to be socially responsible. I, personally, think there's a necessity to be at least partially sensitive to your audience. An audience that is, according to some reports, ~40% female, should be acknowledged.

If the audience were 0% female, if the videos games that existed appealed to no women at all because they were overflowing with teen male empowerment sex fantasies, would it then be okay?

I don't think creators of art/entertainment owe anything in particular to their audience.  Say a hard rock band forms, and it develops a big following among hard rock fans, and then the band decides to start making country music.  The fans don't have to like it or buy it, they can criticize it all they want, but the band doesn't have to make hard rock just because that's what the audience wants.  No matter how many albums they've bought or concerts they've attended, the fans don't own them.  They have to be free to pursue their passion, even if their passion isn't where the money is at.  If they end up playing at open mic night at their local bar, that's their choice.

 Now I don't know that damsels in distress are the passion of developers, but I distinguish between "X is a boring, overdone trope that doesn't appeal to a large part of your potential audience, and we'd be more likely to buy Y instead" and "X is sexist, and it teaches men to beat their wives, so you have a responsibility to make Y instead".  I still say that gamers can vote with their wallets as well as by saying what they like and don't like, and if they have as much financial pull as that 40% suggests, someone will bite.  Otherwise, one way to affect change would be to get into the industry and change it from the inside.

Another would be to start a website for female gamers, and by that I don't mean a website to tell people what is sexist.  There's a site that tells parents what kind of content a movie has that they might not want to expose their children to, but it doesn't exist to judge the content.  It doesn't say, "Kids who see the Saw movies will be totally messed up."  It doesn't need to, because the parents can decide for themselves how they feel about the content.  The website could grade games on various qualities such as playable characters and damsels in distress and sexualization without having to tell the gamers whether or not they're supposed to be okay with that.  It could promote games, too, both games like Beyond Good & Evil that have a strong female protagonist and games that just go over well with a lot of female gamers for whatever reason.  And it could interview women in the industry (to the extent that there are women in the industry).




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0
 05.29.2013 11:00pm


judge_raz
Ceci n'est pas une lobster



And she's completely disabled ratings and comments. What a surprise.



"Of Christ's twelve Apostles Judas alone proved to be traitor. But if he had acquired power, he would have represented the other eleven Apostles as traitors, and also all the lesser Apostles whom Luke numbers as seventy." - Leon Trotsky

I have a blog. This is its URL. You should read it. It's about education and skepticism and books and it has a lot of pictures of Batman and Robin in it: https://baldermoon.wordpress.com/




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0
 05.29.2013 11:46pm
 (Edited on 05.30.2013 at 12:04am)

Murasame
HALE YEAH



Onyx said:

To be fair, the statistic of "Murders per hundred thousand" can be pretty deceptive for a country like the US. Compared to third world countries, it's pretty low, but we still have well over 300 million people here. The percentage rate itself is low, but it's still a lot of dead bodies. Not to mention the parts of the country where these sort of crimes are underreported or counted for whatever reason, like poor, mostly black inner cities.

Yeah, it was the fastest data I could think of. I know for a first world nation that the US actually has pretty high incidences of violence, but on the general face of things (much higher reporting in first world nations being chief amongst them), it's pretty decent.

Fincher said:

If the audience were 0% female, if the videos games that existed appealed to no women at all because they were overflowing with teen male empowerment sex fantasies, would it then be okay?

Of course not - the calls for change would simply be weaker, and change would come at a much slower rate. The issue comes when those simply asking for equality meet resistance, which is exactly what happens. Gaming is filled to the brim with misogyny. Mindless, shitty, misogyny. It's the mindlessness that these videos are trying to address.

Fincher said:

I don't think creators of art/entertainment owe anything in particular to their audience.  Say a hard rock band forms, and it develops a big following among hard rock fans, and then the band decides to start making country music.  The fans don't have to like it or buy it, they can criticize it all they want, but the band doesn't have to make hard rock just because that's what the audience wants.  No matter how many albums they've bought or concerts they've attended, the fans don't own them.  They have to be free to pursue their passion, even if their passion isn't where the money is at.  If they end up playing at open mic night at their local bar, that's their choice.

That's not social responsibility at all. I'd suggest this discussion is analogous to the discussion of rape jokes happening in the comedy scene at the moment. No one (within the community) would ever deny a person's choice to tell a rape joke. A lot of people (myself included) believe that nothing is sacred in comedy. That, however, does not make all rape jokes perfectly okay. It can be funny, sure. It can be inoffensive. There's a multitude of things that come into play. There is, quite possibly, an argument to be made that no rape jokes are funny. But sometimes they can be, and maybe sometimes they could be worth it. HOWEVER: It does not absolve the teller from participating in rape culture. In the same sense, simply saying something or someone is not sexist simply because of sentiment behind something that is, on the surface of it, sexist, does not absolve it from sexism.

So I'm just gonna say that was not quite the social responsibility I had in mind.

Fincher said:

Another would be to start a website for female gamers, and by that I don't mean a website to tell people what is sexist.  There's a site that tells parents what kind of content a movie has that they might not want to expose their children to, but it doesn't exist to judge the content.  It doesn't say, "Kids who see the Saw movies will be totally messed up."  It doesn't need to, because the parents can decide for themselves how they feel about the content.  The website could grade games on various qualities such as playable characters and damsels in distress and sexualization without having to tell the gamers whether or not they're supposed to be okay with that.  It could promote games, too, both games like Beyond Good & Evil that have a strong female protagonist and games that just go over well with a lot of female gamers for whatever reason.  And it could interview women in the industry (to the extent that there are women in the industry).

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and suggest that something like this probably already exists. I'm also gonna go out on another limb and suggest that asking for things politely is a completely shitty way of asking for change. It's also a super shitty way of promoting the cause, too. It's navel-gazing bullshit that sits comfortably over there where the majority of gamers don't have to deal with it, where if you sit in your comfortable world of the status quo, you don't have to deal with it.

That's shitty. For some people, some people who like games, just like you, they have to deal with it, whether they like it or not. Why the fuck is their experience in gaming any less important than yours? Do their dollars mean less? Arguably, since they (statistically) have less of them, I'd say their dollars mean more. 40% is a large percent - casual market or no. 50% is not far off. (further, if we keep up with the shitty attitudes)

It just fucking infuriates me that the objectification of women in games can just be waved off so lightly. It's awful to be reduced to an object, a stereotype, because of something you have no control over. Dismissed anger because you're short - a nerd because you wear glasses - unhygenic because you don't shave your armpits - a basement dweller because you play video games.

It's just so fucking backward that the gaming community - of all communities - is essentially telling ladies "hey, you're not important because you're a minority. Suck it up."

Bull. Shit.

Edit: On the whole "women as the protected, men as the protector" - whilst probably borne out of well meaning sentiments that a man should never beat his wife, it does so through disempowerment, not only of women, but also of men who "fail" as protectors.

If the slate were wiped clean, hell yeah the "incidence" of violence would go up, because then, hey, maybe violence against men would be taken a little more seriously if a hit from a women carried the same (legal) weight of a hit from a man. Sexism hurts dudes almost as much as it hurts women.

I doubt any other region of violence in this hypothetical tabula rasa scenario would go up that much, though. Gang violence is aided by guns, drunk violence is aided by bottles, and rape violence? Is still a lot easier with a dick. But hey, that's not important, because like Sarkeesian said, and every other civil rights advocate before her has said, this shit don't exist inside a vaccuum. We have to actively address these issues, not just pretend we start from the beginning of the concept of gender or race or sexuality every time.




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