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GAME OF THRONES: SEASON 4

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04.22.2014 1:50am

Onyx
Butts
Administrator

Why can't it be because of both?

Also if you're looking for something without rape then ASOIAF/Game of Thrones is very much the wrong series to read/watch.

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04.22.2014 2:56am

(Edited on 04.22.2014 at 4:04am)

Rhaegar
World Warrior 21007

Yeah, most of the complaints I have and have read have incorporate both of those reasons.

Nelfichu: You'll have to excuse me if I don't trust Reddit's interpretions of, well, anything. They're as bad as the worst of Tumblr, except completely ass-backwards in their basic world views.

I'm also a bit disappointed in GRRM's hands-off response to this.

Spoiler: Move your mouse over the container to reveal.

He says he's "not sure it would work" if Cersei's dialogue was included. Well, most people watching the series are pretty damn sure the show's version of the scene as is didn't work.

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04.22.2014 3:47am

Onyx
Butts
Administrator

I mean, Jaime is no saint in the book at all. But he's grown a lot as a character since he threw Bran out of a window. Having him become a rapist completely undoes that and honestly I can't picture him doing that even when he was at his worst. Especially since his own sister was a victim of serious abuse at the hands of her husband, including spousal rape.

GRRM is right in that the scene should be disturbing, but not for those reasons. But I don't like his hand-off approach to it and blaming it on the changed timeline is pretty lame.

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04.22.2014 4:06am

Raphael
Eternal Lurker

I'll just leave this here.

https://www.danbarham.com/dinklage/

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04.22.2014 5:44am

Jaran
I'm going to try SCIENCE!

Onyx said:

I mean, Jaime is no saint in the book at all. But he's grown a lot as a character since he threw Bran out of a window. Having him become a rapist completely undoes that and honestly I can't picture him doing that even when he was at his worst.

Let's also not forget the time he caved in a cousin's skull just for a chance to escape from the Starks

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04.22.2014 8:03am

ManjiSanji
Insanity Mongoose

Personally, book and show, I took the scene as this:

Jaime lived life a certain way for a long time. Maybe he wanted to be a decent person, a good knight, and perhaps he was a bit naive about the world much like Sansa. Then he was made bitter by the actions of his father and Aerys, and the once wonderful world full of possibility turned dirty and he became what we knew at the start of the story.

Then he goes through all of this stuff making him question who he is, why he is, why he does things, why he did the terrible things he did.
So he's changed, right? He's learned his lesson.

But then he has a chance to get it all back. To be the old him. He grabs for it. He's going to get it back, one way or a fucking other.

I think a lot of characters, and people in particular, NEED to take that extra step back, even when they've had a lot of growth in a, "good," direction, because it gives them that glance back at what they were, and they really get to choose what really matters to them. Jaime sees that he's a terrible person, and he loves terrible people, and he's part of one big terrible family, but he needed to come back to that to see just how terrible it all is.

I preferred the book version, but either way he does something terrible, and the scene accomplishes what it's meant to.

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04.22.2014 8:05am

(Edited on 04.22.2014 at 8:36am)

Kal
yes

Zubis said:

To be perfectly blunt about this

Spoiler: Move your mouse over the container to reveal.
The amount of people who don't like this scene - not because it's rape, but because it's not "true to the arc" in the books - is pretty disgusting.

Most of the complaints i've seen were about the fact that the scene is very poorly directed and edited and is trying to walk on a blurred line between weird consensual sex and rape when there are no blurred lines in reality: either something is rape or it is not.
The poor editing/directing creates a weird dichotomy for viewers, who see a rape scene, but are told it's consensual. It sends all kinds of terrible messages.

I don't think it's comparable to the scenes of violence either: people know you're not supposed to bash someone's skull with a rock, there's no ambiguity there. People know you're not supposed to push a kid out a window, no ambiguity there either.
Some people watch this rape scene and don't even realize/understand it's rape, it's filmed much too ambiguously and to add insult to injury, the entire cast comes out and says it's supposed to be consensual, and that is where the problem lies.
You can't be ambiguous when filming a scene like this, you just can't.

edit: I've also seen a lot of posts about how Cersei "had it coming" or "yeah but she kissed him at first, you can't be okay with something and then not okay" "she didn't fight back it's not rape".
This is why you can't be ambiguous when filming a rape scene. Because way too many people have no idea what rape is.

re: Dany's rape: As far I can remember (and i could be wrong since i haven't rewatched that ep since it first aired) there was no ambiguity about that scene. Also, it wasn't used as a way to "punish" Dany's character or as development for Drogo. It was an establishing plot point: this is what their relationship is now, we're going to tell the story of how it evolved.

Last episode's scene was nothing but shock value as �??since it was not even filmed as a rape scene to begin with�?? it will have absolutely no bearing on Jaime and Cersei's relationship.

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04.23.2014 3:13am

Rhaegar
World Warrior 21007

Especially if next week's preview is anything to go by. You see Jaime and Cersei talking as if nothing wrong happened there. :/

Anyway, I find it pretty damning that Westeros.org's reviewers, who are normally critical to the point of obnoxiousness about fairly minor quibbles concerning the show, were borderline accepting of the Jaime/Cersei scene.

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04.23.2014 1:29pm

Thread Creator

reido
(\/)(o,,,o)(\/)

Next week on HBO: Jaime and Cersei have a hastily-shot conversation about how she knowingly didn't use their safe-word.

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04.23.2014 1:37pm

Zo
another blue ribbon

I have to admit, three seasons in and I'm kind of losing the ability to handwave all the tits and violence against women on this show. As much as I love this show (and I do) too often sex and sexual violence - mostly focusing on women and their bodies - are used in place of actual storyline progression. Dany/Drogo used rape to underline Dany's character arc - Jaime/Cersei uses it as filler. Ros is developed as a smart, savvy social climber for three seasons, and then is done away with off-camera to convince us that yes, Littlefinger is a bad guy. Ramsay Snow gets two women to clamber naked all over Theon for the sake of yet another torture scene. What started as smart is becoming more and more exploitative, and it makes me uneasy - especially considering the "sexiness" of GoT is waaaay down on the list of things this show is good for.

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04.23.2014 1:43pm

Thread Creator

reido
(\/)(o,,,o)(\/)

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04.24.2014 8:13pm

Kal
yes

Ros is dead! Long live Olivar!

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04.28.2014 5:59am

(Edited on 04.28.2014 at 6:13am)

Rhaegar
World Warrior 21007

Eh, not one of the better episodes.

Spoiler: Move your mouse over the container to reveal.

That second half was a mess and could potentially have a serious butterfly effect. Jon knowing about Bran is bad enough, but the possibility of them meeting? Please tell me that won't really happen. I really hope next episode (assuming that's when the Watch-instead-of-WW raid on Craster's Keep takes place) just has them passing unaware of each other a la Arya and the Hound at the Red Wedding. Maybe even better, if something leads Jon to believe the mutineers at Craster's killed Bran. That's about the neatest way this could be resolved at this point.

Wasn't fond of the rather washed-out Oathkeeper conversation. The book version had more tension. Also missed my favorite exchange. ("Joffrey was" ... "My king. Leave it at that.")

Also didn't like Cersei acting like nothing ESPECIALLY inappropriate happened the episode before. (Again, if that scene was supposed to be consensual they MISERABLY failed to convey that, and that's the last I'll beat that dead horse with.) Just the par-for-the-course cold-ish tone that's been between her and Jaime all season so far.

Conquest of Meereen was a little too convenient, although I can understand why they'd choose to delay some of Daenerys' other conquest-related plot points to later episodes since it's not like much happens in Meereen immediately after the conquest anyway. (The ADWD Dany chapters save for the last couple are easily the draggiest material in that book for cripes sakes.)

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04.28.2014 6:37am

Nelfichu
I've been there, hombre.

Dat ending.

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04.28.2014 6:47am

Rhaegar
World Warrior 21007

Might be the first time book readers are spoiled by the show.

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